Arrrgh!!!

...how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?...

...one...

..but the lightbulb *really* has to want to change....

How true. Just because you have a problem with what someone does or how they act doesn't mean that there is a problem them (unless of course, it is illegal). It means that you have a problem and making someone else change (not that that is possible) is not the way to solve your problem - change yourself or get over it!

What you say here is true Buffy. I think it is even more profound when people decide to marry someone and mention that they plan to change the partner in the union....it won't happen. What you see is what you get! Like it or leave it.

Okay...what if the friend (or family member) is doing something to hurt themself? Like, an asthmatic who continues to smoke cigarettes, despite terrible, wheezing, coughing spells? Should friends/family interfere to say, "We all think you have a problem, and we want you to quit because we love you and want to see you live."?

This is a tough call. I was actually writing about things other than health, but I believe what I wrote holds true. People successfully change when it's THEIR idea or choice to change.

I'd be likely to tell my friend (or family member) that they need to make a change. I'd tell them how much we hate the idea of loosing them, and describe how good their life could be IF they would make the change (or how bad it will be if they don't). But, don't be surprised if they don't follow through. Smoking is a particularly difficult habit to kick, even when it's life threatening.

Good luck!

sometimes people have a flaw which makes them socially broken, resulting in people avoiding them or thinking they are an asshole. in that case it is nicer for someone to screw up the courage and enlighten them than for people to just avoid them.

Sonic, what if it's something that the person is unable to change? Do you really think that person will feel any better for having the obvious pointed out to them, when they can't make the change?

I think we all need to learn to be more accepting. I don't know a single perfect person. My mother had a saying for this: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

sometimes people can change and are totally unaware that their behavior is causing people to dislike and avoid them. they wonder why people don't like them and it is a kindness to inform them that perhaps it is certain aspects of their behavior. social skills are *learned*. that is why it may seem obvious to us but not to them. if someone wasn't properly socialized at some point, a good friend might help them with that.

But, if a behavior has been allowed to go on too long, it's unlikely that the person will be able to change without professional help. There are exceptions. A person going through the stress of a divorce, or the loss of a loved one might exhibit behavior that is not socially comfortable, but usually we work our way out of those situations given a little time. But, someone who has an unacceptable behavior from childhood is less likely to be successful in making the change.

i don't know that it is a good philosophy in life to assume things are hopeless and make no effort. and you are making assumptions that the person is going through difficult circumstances or has had unacceptable behavior from childhood. i agree with you that people often shove their noses in and point out things that are not easy to change and hurtful to the recipient. i've only been saying that *sometimes* it is something that they can change, and in those situations it can be useful for a friend to point it out. here are two examples:

i know a boy who was confounded at why women constantly aborted relations with him early on in dating. things started out great, but then if he left the girl a phone message and didn't get a return call within an hour, he would leave a barrage of frantic voicemail and email messages within a few hours. when the girl discovered her email and voicemail boxes full of these, she considered him a psycho and told him to never speak to her again. sitting down and having a little talk with him about how sometimes people are away from their computer or phone and it doesn't mean they hate him, and it alarmed them to have him leap to that conclusion worked wonders, and he no longer has women running away screaming. before having it pointed out, he never realized that his behavior was not normal behavior.

another example is, i know a girl who is nice and fun to hang out with. however, anytime you speak to her on email, phone, or chat, she is constantly asking to hang out. she will ask you to hang out 7 times in one day, and if she finds out you did anything without her, she is hurt and demands why you didn't call her. she does this to all her acquaintences, not just specific people she really likes. the result is that everyone feels harrassed and actually hangs out with her less than they otherwise would. no one is equipped to handle it so they avoid her. if someone was brave enough to nicely point out that while people do like hanging out with her, they feel terrible being forced to reject her constantly and so avoid encountering her on the phone/email/chat. even if you hung out wth her once per day, you would still be rejecting her the other 6 times she asked you out that day unless you hung out with her 24x7. one might point out that the normal way people ask to hang out (outside of high school or college) is to invite someone to one specific thing once every few days, and give them space to be with other friends or alone. i never told her this, i just avoided her along with everyone else and currently we are estranged. now that i am older i feel it would have been much kinder if someone had pointed this out to her rather than avoid her in droves. i believe it can be done nicely, and she is intelligent and just unaware that her behavior is not normal and makes people uncomfortable.

Actually, sonic, we are approaching this subject from two diffrent directions. The main thrust of my post was that we shouldn't try to force our own viewpoints and choices on someone else. For instance, a parent should not try to correct an adult child who has made choices in conflict with the parent's ideals. This ranges from the trivial to the most intense. For example, a mother might carp at a daughter about how she dresses, or about her choice of boy friends, or where she lives, or where she works. At some point, you have to stand back and let your child make their own decisions. We all grow from our experiences, and if we are forced to accept someone else's choices, we loose the opportunity to grow.

In the situation you are discussing, I'm not completely convinced that we should make it a practice to set others straight on their failings. Not all of us are able to find the kind way to tell someone about their faults, and I think we risk potential damage. Yes....in certain situations.....it would be a kindness, but I think you have to assess each situation, and walk away from most of them.

yes, i agree.

I might have the answer. The Big Point is that the advise is sometimes appropriate, but it has to be welcome, not forced upon.

I have a mentally ill niece living with me, who's also a recovering addict. Her life has been such turmoil that she really and truely does need help with her interpersonal skills and the activities of daily living. She's also 34, the mother of 2 (who live out of state), and I'm not her legal guardian. She's not a child. I might have some tips for those dealing with someone who is unusually clueless.

I hold fast to the notion that her recovery has to be her own. I don't tell her she can't do drugs or drink. I tell her that if she chooses to do those things she will no longer be able to live at my house. I ask her to think about why she decided she had to quit using drugs.

Whether it's about drugs or some of her anti-social behaviors, I don't tell her what to do. I draw her into a conversation about it, usually including either "how did that work out for you?" or "how do you think that would make you feel if someone did that to you?" Most of her anti-social behaviors stem from her being very Self Centered. This is different than selfish (she's very generous). Being self centered is classic for addicts and for anybody who has trouble connecting to others. They literally have trouble thinking outside their own needs and wants. I have to let her say her piece, listen for all the hidden clues, then ask lots of questions that draw her around to thinking about the other person. Quite often I find out that there was something about it that made her feel threatened, usually an assumption about the other person, and that by suggesting that maybe there was a completely benign reason for the other person's remark or actions, she calms right down and can then process the rest on her own.

I also make a point of always including a couple of important points. 1. That everybody does whatever she is doing "wrong" to some extent. 2. That the other person isn't perfect, and may very well be in the wrong. But, that she can't change that person, only how she reacts. It's not about "fixing Mary", it's about helping Mary be Mary and have the life she wants, which has a lot less conflict in it than the life she had.

There are other times when there just isn't the time for this. Then I will simply say "Mary, I see that this is getting you pretty grumpy, and I think I can help you, would you like to hear my suggestions?" If she says "no", I shut up.

I also don't expect results, especially not instantly. I took her 34 years to get this way. She's making the best progress she can.

I don't tie my love and support to her taking my advise, except when my own safety is involved, such as with the drugs and alcohol. (Actually the drugs and alcohol aren't even a matter of her taking my advise, it's a matter of her keeping our agreement. She came to me saying she wanted to stay clean and sober. I agreed to help her if she does.) The other threat to my safety has been extreme nightly disturbance. I totalled one car while driving tired, and am not willing to risk that again. Even then, I don't withold my love and support. I withhold other priveleges.

And finally, I use myself as an example constantly. If I do something that causes trouble for me, especially if it's similar to something that causes trouble for her, I coach myself out-loud with "Alice, you knew if you didn't write that down that you would forget." Or I'll say to her "Mary, see, I drank too much coffee and now I can't sleep. I really have to stop doing that if I want to sleep at night."

Lastly, if you're going to give advise - you're not done unless and until you've solicited their opinion back. What did they think you said to them? How do they feel about it? I ask Mary point blank if she thinks I'm being a busy-body or if what I'm saying is helpful. She's so dependent on me that I work extra hard on this, to counteract any tendency to just want to please me.

Thanks for a great post, Auntie (handing over the "Advice Lady" hat)